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Saturday, December 20, 2008

The Warren Debate rages on - more comment wars - then I promise to give it a rest

submitted by booksnmore4you 20 hr 48 min ago : Obama Was Right To Pick Warren (huffingtonpost.com) — Former Religious Right Kingpin Frank Schaeffer explains why.

From the article:
I'm pro-Obama, pro-gay rights. I'm a former once burned, twice shy, ex-evangelical, son of a founder of the Religious Right, now a writer excoriated by the right as a traitor. And Let me tell you why Obama is -- again -- wiser than his critics in picking Warren to pray at the inauguration.

Unlike his lefty critics lamenting Obama's ideological impurity, the President-elect is actually positioning himself to help gay rights. That is because he is going to actually govern, not stand on the sidelines complaining. As such he needs to do all he can to soothe the idiots, when it comes to the tough social/political issues that are the residue of 30 years of culture wars.

In inviting Warren, President-elect Obama is sending a signal that as President he is going to stick with resolve to doing the tough things when it comes to using some political capital on behalf of the gay community. He knows symbols are important and is softening the blow for the vast number of evangelicals to whom Warren -- who, may it be noted, looks to me like a fatter, weirder reincarnation of Jerry Falwell, literally -- is a hero.

As noted by Jim Wallis in his "Hearts and Minds" Sojourners post (December 19, 2008) a leading evangelical -- Richard Cizik -- who is progressive on environmental issues and gay rights, was just fired from the vice presidency of the National Association of Evangelicals for only daring to say he is warming up to the idea of gay civil unions.

As Wallis notes:

Rich Cizik has been a pioneer in the "new evangelical" movement... Rich has helped lead the way to putting "creation care" and climate change on the mainstream agenda of the evangelical movement... because of things he said in an NPR interview with Terry Gross [he was fired]. The controversy of some of Rich's statements, in particular his "shifting" feelings about gay civil unions, admitting that he voted for Barack Obama in the primaries, and implying that he did so in the general election, caused so much controversy in some quarters of the NAE's constituency that the Executive Committee felt they had no choice but to suggest resignation, which Rich quickly but sadly accepted...


Here's the point for all you progressives that only talk to yourselves and haven't a clue about the "other" America: in a country where a national evangelical leader is fired for just voting for Obama, and thinking friendly thoughts about gays, the new progressive president has his work cut out!

If you all -- if we -- bitch each time Obama makes a strategic move, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot. Pipe down, and give him a chance. And by the way, America faces bigger problems right now than the window dressing at the inauguration.

Progressives are too used to failing. Stop worrying about little battles, you just won a war. It's all about real results now, not words, and not symbols. It is time to think like winners. The issue now is governance, not symbols.


x88justy: Hey, wait a minute! I'd love to hear your argument that Warren deserves equality and a seat at the big table, but I can't get past your name calling. You call the Californian anti-gay marriage evangelical pastor Warren "heroic" and taunt us by speculating that we're actually just going to lose more than we already have if we don't stop protesting Obama's choices.
The reality is the Gays protesting Warren's inclusion are not wacko nor necessarily "lefty" (a derogatory variant of the word "leftist") and at least as heroic as Warren is. I mean, he gets to stand up for our oppression. Why can't we stand up for our freedom?
Gays are not going to take being run of out town like a bunch of torturing, wealth-hoarding, earth-pillaging, equal rights denying, health care denying, poverty-making, educational-access denying, morally corrupt Republicans. That's not the wacko thing to do. That is heroic, and not easy thing to do.
You and Warren are all ready to enjoy a historic day without making any complaints whatsoever. We've been forced off being on the same page as you are by Warren's own Proposition 8.

If you keep reading, you will notice my mind changing...


Lee Stranahan, Filmmaker, Writer, Photographer
Posted December 20, 2008 | 02:18 PM (EST):

My Congratulation Letter To Those Against Gay Marriage

Seth Godin writes about business and marketing, so his newest blog post isn't about Prop. 8 at all. But maybe there's some deep wisdom in marketing.

I read Godin's post Two Ways To Deal With 'No' this morning and like most of what Seth writes it's quick, easy to read and thought provoking. He's talking about dealing with rejection in business, like being turned down for a job or contract. He writes...

You could be more gracious than if you'd won the work. You could send a thank you note for the time invested, you could sing the praises of the vendor chosen in your stead and you could congratulate the buyer, "based on the criteria you set out, it's clear that you made exactly the right choice for your organization right now." That doesn't mean the criteria were right, it just means that you're not attacking the person for being an impulsive lunatic.

Here's how I think this could apply to gay marriage advocates....although I want to make it clear that this is solely my take on applying this concept, not Mr. Godin's.

Since Election Day the response of gay marriage advocates so far has largely been to attack Prop. 8 advocates as impulsive lunatics who were full of hate and stupid, But is that really the criteria that people who voted Yes on 8 voted on? I don't think so.

People who voted against marriage equality didn't think "What's the stupidest most hateful thing I can vote for today?" Some of their criteria is wrong in my opinion but that's not useful to point out. It's better to look for agreement.

So is there any common ground? My last piece on Rick Warren here at The Huffington Post asked people to consider what they had in common with Pastor Rick Warren. Some who commented were adamant there was essentially nothing they had in common. I think that's a limiting belief that blocks understanding, dialog and the road to a real solution.

One sign of extremism is the shrill denial that ANY common ground exists between us and them. We are good and right and THEY are just evil and stupid. We've seen this from the Bush administration a lot in the past eight years and unfortunately, a lot of gay marriage advocates seem to adopted the same basic tactic.

But if we try and adopt the mindset that Godin suggests for dealing with rejection in business, I think there's a major area of common ground between the pro and anti Prop. 8 forces. I think the politics of division make it impossible to see just how close the camps really are on a key issue but by trying to say "based on the criteria you set out, it's clear that you made exactly the right choice" to the people who voted Yes on 8, the commonality emerges..

Here's my attempt at a congratulation letter to the Yes On 8 forces...

Dear Yes On 8 voters,


The members of the gay and lesbian community and their friends and family would like to congratulate on your victory. It may seem an odd gesture but we think the amount of money and time you put into the campaign shows that you actually agree with us on what is really the central issue.

We agree with you that marriage in important.

You made this case to the voters. You said that marriage is something important that must be protected. You're right.

If you've seen angry protests in the past few weeks, please understand that they happened because we believe marriage needs to protected. Imagine the pain and anguish you might feel if your right to marry the person you loved were suddenly taken away. That's what a lot of us felt happened on election day.

We want to preserve marriage - your marriages and our marriages, too. We don't want to change your religious beliefs or make your church perform a ceremony that's against its traditions. Many gay people belong to churches that embrace us and those churches should be free to perform services...just as other churches should be free to follow their own views and not perform services if that's what they want.

Marriage has so many contractions. On one hand, it's a very conservative institution that helps maintain order with things like property inheritance. On the other, it's one of the craziest leaps of faith that anyone can make personally. Knowing the divorce statistics, knowing that people change over time and knowing that the incredible and powerful feeling of being in love can change radically with time - we still choose to stand up and say that we are ready to risk pain and heartache by stepping into the important and life changing event called marriage. We want the freedom to take that risk.

Because...we love.

It may not be something that makes sense to you but why someone loves another person often doesn't make sense. We often don't even understand it ourselves. But, just like you, we do love.

If you know the value and importance of marriage and family in your own life then you can understand the value we place on those things, too. And that's why we feel so strongly that we have to continue this fight for marriage - because it matters to us just as much as you've shown that it matters to you.

So congratulations for standing up for marriage. We understand that change can be fast sometimes and that his new idea of love and marriage may be new to you - but so is the idea of an African-America President who reaches out to those with whom he disagrees.

We invite you to join us in the future as we try struggle for the rights and risks of marriage. This vote showed that marriage matters. Now it's the time to make it matter for everyone.


x88justy: Thanks, Lee! That one hit me over the head. My last comment definitely wasn't in that spirit. Is it too late to back down and just chill now?

tracygav
20 hr 7 min ago :
"If you all -- if we -- bitch each time Obama makes a strategic move, we are just shooting ourselves in the foot. Pipe down, and give him a chance."

x88justy (just now): What a shame the debate got framed the way it has. It want to protest, but I'm giving up the protest. I'm going to support Obama. A terribly worded article, btw.

x88justy (about 10 hours later): Okay, that last comment was still too angry. I've been outraged for three days. I'm worn out. I can't explain why this was such a big deal, other than I live out here in California never expected to be the target of an Obama talking point. He told us to "move on", which basically translates as "shut up.' And yet I still totally like the guy. He's got balls to tell us to "move on"! Humble pie, anyone?

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